AI Church Toolkit

UH AI Church Toolkit provides practical tools for faithful ministry in digital world

>> Peter: Foreign. Welcome to episode 10 of UH AI Church Toolkit, the podcast that equips church leaders with practical tools for faithful ministry in a digital world. I'm Peter Levenstrong here with my co host Mercedes. Welcome back to the pod, Mercedes.

>> Mercedes: Thank you. Glad to be back. So today is a very special episode. We are joined by the Reverend Joe Nygaard and uh, Dr. Sonya Komen from the National Cathedral's Crossroads Podcast. The Crossroads podcast explores the intersection of faith and the world, offering a safe space for tough questions around politics, technology, and our responsibilities. This is a crossover episode between our two podcasts, hoping to expand the conversation to include larger church contexts. And they have a lot of great stuff on their podcast, also talking about AI and technology. So please check them out after listening to this episode. The link will be in the show notes.

Dr. Sonia Komen leads Washington National Cathedral's digital transformation

>> Peter: So to introduce our guests, Dr. Sonia Komen is Director of Digital Engagement at uh, Washington National Cathedral, where she leads the Cathedral's digital transformation. With over a decade of experience in strategic communications and audience engagement, she brings a unique blend of expertise in business strategy, the arts and innovation. A core team member at the world innovation network, Dr. Komen also advises Fortune 500 leaders on visual content strategy. She holds a PhD from Columbia University in is co author of New Directions in Organizational and Management History and UH is an award winning haiku poet and visual artist.

>> Mercedes: And the Reverend Jo Nygard Owens is Pastor for Digital Ministry at Washington National Cathedral where she leads efforts to extend worship and community into online spaces. With a background in church communications and experience across denominational lines, Jo brings deep insight into how digital tools can support vibrant, faithful ministry. Prior to her work at the Cathedral, she founded an organization called Vibrant Church Communications and has equipped congregations around the world to navigate technology with creativity and care.

>> Peter: We had a great conversation about AI, critical thinking and faithful discernment. That's coming right up. So let's dive in.

Peter Lavenstrong is the Associate Rector at San Francisco Episcopal Church

>> Jo Nygard Owens: We are so excited to have a very special podcast today and I want to start by introducing a few of our guests and then they're actually going to take a turn and introduce us. So first, Peter, hello. Welcome. Where are you joining us from? And tell us a little bit about yourself.

>> Peter: All right, well, yeah, thank you for having us here. Um, I'm Peter Levenstrong I'm the Associate Rector at St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco. Uh, Mercedes and I have been sharing about AI and how it can be useful practically for ministers and church leaders, uh, over the course of the past, however, many months on our podcast together. Um, yeah, so it's great to sync up and be here, uh, with you all.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: Wonderful, thank you.

Peter and Mercedes are exploring how AI can help churches in practical ministry

Peter and Mercedes, tell us about yourself and where are you joining from?

>> Mercedes: Absolutely. Ah, I am the rector of All Saints Episcopal Church in, uh, Russellville, Arkansas. Uh, and so it falls more in the rural, smaller, uh, kind of community. And as we, we are exploring, uh, just kind of how the future is going to kind of roll out what AI can do to assist in our ministries. And I love that Peter and I came, uh, together on this common mission of, uh, really focusing on the intersection of AI, uh, in practical ministry, while also kind of of theologically thinking about, uh, the approach and, um, helping other people to frame their, uh, own options.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: Wonderful.

>> Mercedes: Well, I guess then can I turn this back on y' all? Um, uh, so our podcast is, uh, the AI Church Toolkit. And, uh, this is a crossover episode, so I'd also love to welcome Joe and, uh, Sonya.

Sonia Komen is the advisor at Washington National Cathedral for Digital Strategy

Uh, Sonya, since we haven't heard from you yet, can you introduce yourself, please?

>> Sonia Komen: Sure. It's such a pleasure to be here. I'm so, so glad that we got together to do this. Um, I'm Sonia Komen. Um, I am the senior, uh, advisor to the Dean at the Cathedral for Digital Strategy. Um, and, uh, I am working a lot with all things AI these days days. Also, um, is, um, um, a member of the board for the AI Business Association International here in D.C. oh, great.

>> Mercedes: Thank you. And, uh, Joe, where are you joining us from?

>> Jo Nygard Owens: I am at my home in Cleveland, Ohio, but I serve as the pastor for digital ministry at, uh, Washington National Cathedral. Uh, and it. We are all over the country today. This is pretty exciting. I love it.

>> Mercedes: Absolutely. I was thinking the same thing. Uh, it's good to get these different perspectives and hear what's going on and share to see where things, you know, what things that we have found in common and what may be different perspectives that we have heard or, uh, noticed.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: I'm going to jump in. I have a question. Ah.

Peter and Mercedes founded AI and Church Summit last summer

So, Peter and Mercedes, I met you all at the AI and Church Summit last summer. Is that where you all met each other? And did you dream up this podcast at that time? So tell us about how you got started.

>> Peter: Yeah, that's where we met. We didn't have that idea until later as we were, um, gathering as an Episcopal cohort after the conference and talking about, you know, um, what we thought we wanted to take forward from the conference. And I think Mercedes and I realized that we were both really aligned on figuring out how these, uh, tools can be practically useful for people in the trenches for parish leaders such as ourselves.

>> Mercedes: I think, uh, in addition, uh, I found, at least in the context where I uh, have uh, been called, uh, technology is not in use as much as say the cathedral. And so I think there's a barrier there that is going to prevent some uh, smaller churches from exploring the possibilities. And so since I have a background in technology and would be exploring on my own that it seemed like a good opportunity to share, share uh, those, share those findings, uh, uh, to hopefully help remove some of the barriers.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: That is so needed. And I'm just so excited for people to keep learning more about your podcast because I think it's going to be a great help to our churches.

>> Mercedes: Thank you.

>> Peter: Thanks. Yeah, um, it's been really fun to get out, get the word out there and also like we are both the, the only ones, you know, only church leaders in our own context using AI, uh intentionally and you know, um, having these discussions about it. So it's both been fun to connect with each other and others and learn about it, um, about how it's being used. But also um, yeah, just to share what has been, what uh, is possible for I guess the smaller church situation, uh, what single, you know, individual church leaders can do.

We're interested in what the National Cathedral is doing with AI

Um, and if I can put it back to you, something we're really interested in is what a much larger congregation like the National Cathedral is up to with AI. Um, you both have, you know, a lot of experience with this and I'm sure there are other people at the cathedral too who are exploring AI. So if you could give us a you know, high level overview of what the National Cathedral is doing to the extent that you're not repeating stuff for your listeners, um, then that would be really helpful uh, for us and our listeners to dream big about uh, what congregations can do.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: I think Sonia is the right person to answer this question.

>> Sonia Komen: Well, at the cathedral, um, I think that we are as intrigued by um, the possibilities as well as the challenges and risks of AI as anyone else. Um, I know that um, after November of 2022 when um, with ChatGPT all of a sudden becoming uh, public and available, once that watershed moment happened, I, um, think that people at the cathedral, like anywhere else in the world, uh, started experimenting, experimenting and understanding um, how it could be useful, how it can um, make life easier and also how it can um, make uh, more creative processes, um, a little more exciting, a little more stimulating, a little richer. Um, and I think that along those lines we have some um, members of our clergy, um, who are experimenting with um, the GPT model, um, mostly um, trying to contain a data set that includes their previous sermons, their previous writings and then having that model look um, exclusively at that as a data set, um, and try to um, either um, replicate, emulate, elaborate on um, their um, ah pastoral voice, um, and provide edits or ideas.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: Yes, I know folks, uh, some of the other clergy folks have mentioned how helpful it has been as an editor after they've uploaded their body of work to then suggest possible edits for, from their own voice and style once they have completed the sermon process. But want to be creative on their own, uh, in the writing process but to use it as a tool.

>> Mercedes: Absolutely. Uh, I want to.

Church using AI to help with event planning has become helpful

Before we move on, I actually want to jump on because uh, I in the last few weeks have noticed something and I am not the only one in my context using AI. Now as we've talked about in our Pocket podcast, um, I have kind of brought AI in through a change management process in the church where I was talking about it early on, um, where uh, I've been asking for feedback and demoing to the vestry and even had a full forum. And so this past weekend we had a planning retreat and um, there were a couple of examples uh, where folks have realized that it has become helpful. One of them is drafting very standard policies that can then be reviewed. Uh, but the neat one that popped up uh, from somebody that's a little bit more uh, tech savvy. While we're in here talking about how we can do event planning better, she popped in and created a GPT that was trained for our context, for our limitations, for our kitchen size so that she now has the ability to let AI take our kind of a standard uh, planning format and then we just feed it the details and it pops up the plan for us.

>> Sonia Komen: That's incredible.

>> Mercedes: And yes, and it starts to take those kinds of repeated processes and helps us to get past. I mean how many hours do we spend in event planning and the details and things? And we always review those plans when they come out of AI but it happens to be pretty good at logistics. Uh, I'm less worried about uh, a theological interpretation in that moment. Uh, so it's actually assisting us in a place where uh, we don't have the manpower to have like a full time event planner. So I just thought it was neat and I am uh, excited to hear where they are exploring some of these things and hopefully be uh, able to share some of those ideas because of course um, it's all always the user, right, that you Know, uh, we think about what we think is going to happen with it but ultimately somebody's going to go, oh, but what if we did this? And uh, all the new ideas come out of that kind of generation.

One of the things we're trying to do is to help people think about AI

>> Jo Nygard Owens: I was going to say at the cathedral, one of the things that we're trying to do is to help people think about AI. So there's the usability side but on the podcast it's especially we want to help with the processes. For a lot of people it's very scary. Uh, it's something that they don't want anything to do with. And so to bring in what's good about AI and to think about the possibilities there, but then also to balance that with the ethical side and the dangers. Uh, but just to help people think in a more well rounded view of it so that they can then engage in helpful ways rather than just fear based avoidance and all of that.

>> Peter: Can I give an example that I think, um, at least I'm feeling currently. This was just from my last week of work. I was running my kids camp and so I want to talk a bit about it just because I'm currently feeling jazzed about it. But I think this will also be a good example for folks who are trying, who are wanting to dream big about what these things can actually do. Um, so we have a camp called Fog Friends of God. It's a theme um, that comes from our patron, ah, St. Gregory of Nyssa and we do it every June. And this year I wanted to expand on some things we've done before and have a bit of gamified uh, throughout theological learning but also um, you know, set it in a, a healthily competitive context so the kids are really trying to you know, go at it and uh, out compete each other in their, in their formation, in their theological learning. So um, I created a game that's basically a non militaristic risk set in the English Reformation where there are these different theological factions. Um, there's the Catholics and Protestants who are allies but within each there's the Puritans and evangelicals on the Protestant side and on the Catholic side there's the Traditionalists and the Henricians. And each day they had to take their faction file which was four pages of you know, theological whatever about their beliefs on the issue of the day and have an hour to come up with a presentation to convince us all of their theological beliefs. Um, and so, and these faction files, these you know, uh, basically just a bunch of data about their, their factions beliefs were all just created by AI like you can use chatgpt. Deep research. Each of the different uh, platforms now have this deep research function where it can create detailed reports for you. And so I had it create, you know, okay, this is what the Puritans think about Eucharist. This is what the evangelicals think, this is what the Henritians think, this is what the traditionalists think. Or you know, for different days, questions of authority, who's in charge? The pope, the King or the Bible? Um, or what language should we use? English or Latin? Should we venerate saints? Or is that idol worship? Uh, and so each day they had to, they had an hour to uh, come up with a presentation response. And it was just really fun to see what they could do, uh, when given all this useful information that it would have taken me forever to compile that information. It would not have been possible, feasible on my, you know, timescale. Uh, but um, I could just have deep uh, research run a report for each day and edit it down and give um, it to the kids. And it's just so fun to see what uh, creativity they can bring to the table. And um, I really love bringing that constructivist approach of like, you know, inviting people to do the work of their own faith formation, like here's, here's the facts now how do you make meaning of it and giving that to the kids. And uh, so it's, it's that more open ended, um, constructivist approach that I think for, especially for older kids, they're looking to not just be told this is what we need to think. Um, and so it just is exciting to me when we can use these tools to create much better resources for the people in our care to have a much more deeply informed faith.

>> Mercedes: And so it is, it reminds me of model UN when I was in high school. Um, I don't know if y' all ever did model United nations, um, but you know, so right there, kind uh, of what Joe was talking about, it is uh, modeling in action. The kind of uh, constructive critical thinking and processing of information. So uh, I love that that kind of combines the two themes, right, that uh, how do we not just teach critical thinking but how do we model it in ways that youth um, in particular don't even really realize that's what they're taking in is a way of learning.

>> Sonia Komen: I think that in both of your examples, the event planning help and um, the um, fact sheets for the exercise for the students, I think that with both of those examples what we see is AI kind of creating space for us to do what we as human beings can do best. Uh, so instead of spending hours trying to create a spreadsheet or filling in a spreadsheet or cobbling together sources from Google searches, um, we actually, um, use AI to do all of that work and then take in all that extra time, all that extra space to think critically, to be creative, to engage with each other, to teach the next generation.

>> Mercedes: And from what I'm hearing, and I'd be curious about what y' all are hearing, uh, what I am starting to settle on. You know, the concerns, uh, that I hear about A.I. uh, are. There is the big philosophical, theological piece. M. But the, uh, everyday church folks, um, are worried about the ethical side of it. Um, but the biggest concern right now that I hear is, uh, what I've decided rolls into a sense of authenticity. That, uh, whether it's sermon writing or liturgical place planning or worship or pastoral care or letters, that they want assurances that this is authentic to the pastor, uh, that the Holy Spirit's been involved. Um, and so I'm curious where. What. What y' all have noticed and heard around the. Those areas as well.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: Very much the same thing. And I. I've been reading lots. I mean, as we all do read almost every day, a different article or two or three about AI and. And how it's working and what it's doing and the impacts. Uh, some say, you know, if we are outsourcing all of our AI Writing, all of our writing to AI then we're losing that skill and everything becomes very flat and homogeneous and there is no spark, there's no Holy Spirit there. Uh, and so I think it is incumbent on us to. To recognize how to use this as a tool rather than to just simply outsource our brains and let the machines take over. So, yeah, if we are stuck in front of a blank page and having trouble getting started, AI is a great way to get started, and you can read what it has written and then invite the Holy Spirit into that and see where that takes you. Uh, but there is. I, uh, hear it with church folks, but I also hear it in my own house. I have a teenager who's 15 who really wants nothing to do with A.I. uh, because of that authenticity. Well, it's a couple of reasons. The authenticity is a big part of it. Uh, and then also taking jobs away from, uh, from human creators. They are a creator, and that's the career path that they've chosen. And so they are very worried about what the future looks like with AI and the creations that AI can Do.

One of the latest buzzwords in the AI space is agentic AI models

>> Peter: Yeah, we should talk about that um, too I want to just say about authenticity. This is like the exact reason why I do not you know, have any sort of email automation thing with AI. I've seen it where you know, people just have like uh, things hooked up so that people uh, write you and you just get, automatically get an AI response and like that um, that just feels off to me because you know we're about human to human relationships in the church and you know I will. I use uh, ChatGPT for like cold emails when I'm reaching out to someone who I don't know because then it can like research ah, who they are and then write them, you know, tailored things about a project I'm working on. Usually this is for uh, Living Stories Sermons, which is another project that I've um, been focused on that uh, I've mentioned in our podcast. But um, again like a very constructivist faith formation approach that we're sharing from St. Gregory's with other churches. But um, so it's great for like finding other people, um, who you know, researching them, speaking to the things that they're interested in. But it's not great at authentically being me. And so I'll like do that in a separate window and then tweak it and make it my own because you know, it's important that, yeah, that we take responsibility for the words that we send out into the world and that people can trust that this is authentically me speaking. Even if I had an AI ghostwriter that helped me with it. Right. Um, yeah, so I think that's important.

>> Sonia Komen: It makes me think um, about the uh, distinction between authenticity and agency. Right. Um, one of the um, latest buzzwords in the AI space is agentic AI models. Right. These are um, models that would be able to perform multiple tasks and identify themselves what tasks are needed in order to complete more complex um, things that they're um, tasked to do. Um, and um, I mean is that a form of agency? Sure it is. Right? It's decision making. Um, it's um, creating a chain of causal relationships that will lead to a predictable result. M But it's not self reference and it's not authenticity. Um, and in that sense the way that we've all talked about so far in how we are using GPT models, we are feeding them elements of who we ourselves are and then we um, think that they're good in as much as they can model being us. Right. As opposed to empowering them, the machines to be themselves. Um, uh, which is you know, Kind of the conversation among computer scientists right now. Right. Can you achieve, um, that level of self reference with the machine, um, and in the creative industries. Joe, you were referencing that as uh. You're absolutely, um, right to point out that it is primarily among people in the creative industries. Designers. Right. And um, artists and illustrators, you know, who are very concerned about their jobs and rightly so. And so in that field, in the creative industries field, there are lots of um, bona fide attempts m to create um, specific styles that are specific to those machines, to those models. Um, and that I think will change the conversation a little bit. Right? Because instead of asking can we still be ourselves when we use this machine that impersonates us because we're asking it to, uh, maybe the conversation will shift to asking, are we in conversation with, um, other personhoods, uh, are we in conversation with machines that are agents in and of themselves, um, and have a sense of self? Um, that all sounds very science fiction. Um, but um, the rate at which the technology has developed, um, in the past couple of years, um, I think should, should give us pause. It may seem less futuristic very soon.

>> Mercedes: Absolutely.

Sonya: There's a lot of confusion around terms related to AI

This is a little bit of an aside, but uh, Sonya, listening to you, uh, it reminded me and uh, I want to thank you for being so specific about defining your terms because uh, I think this is also something uh, that we need to be very careful about when we're having these conversations. A lot of these words, these terms mean something different, um, from a scientist to uh, a creator, uh, to a computer scientist. And that's uh, something that I keep running into is realizing that we're using the same word sometimes but with different meaning. And that is also causing a lot of confusion. Um, and I think it kind of complicates the conversation sometimes because I am also noticing people that are listening and defining the word in their head different than I might have defined it. Um, when we first convened, I didn't mention, mentioned before. I'm on the interim, uh, uh, task force for AI and intellectual property for the general convention. And our first meeting you have um, people with all these different expertises in the room. And it became very clear that we needed a common set of terms, a glossary, because uh, our definition were wildly off, even on simple things. And the example that uh, we had a long discussion because I kept saying white paper, which in the technology world is a one page case study with pretty graphs and infographics, but to the academic was a 40 page journal article and it took us 20 minutes to figure out that we were talking about two different things. So, um, that's kind of the amusing one. But it comes up in a lot of the terms that we're using, and in part because AI is infiltrating so many different domains and industries so quickly.

Peter Bergen: Artificial intelligence and consciousness are provocative words

>> Sonia Komen: Well, that makes me think of, um, the very words, um, that form this acronym, um, that we're all talking about. Right. Artificial intelligence. Um, those are actually words that we don't normally use in our daily lives that much. Right. What. What else do we call artificial? And. And what do we qualify as? Intelligent. Right. I think that those are two very provocative words, actually. Um, and in a way, the acronym, while convenient, kind of hides this, uh, um, profound, um, combination of two terms that can give us so much.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: Do you all remember at the conference they talked about. It was almost named something else.

>> Mercedes: Augmented intelligence. Uh, that was, uh, from the futurist.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: Whose name just escaped me, but Bob Johanson.

>> Mercedes: Thank you. Talked about augmented intelligence. Um, but, you know, sometimes I get frustrated because I feel like. And I think this is what he was getting at, that the terms artificial intelligence are defining the argument. But if we just called it, you know, um, computer generation 550 to, would it have all of this loaded meaning, and would we be able to, uh, more clearly, uh, evaluate what we're doing here?

>> Jo Nygard Owens: I think yes and no question.

>> Peter: I don't know.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: Yeah, it's a. Both. And, uh, I think there could be some of the baggage taken away, but the issues would still remain.

>> Mercedes: Mm. I just do wonder about, uh, the term intelligence in there. Uh, one, because whoever, way back when, when they originally defined it, they didn't intend it to be what it has become. Two, because even in psychology, we see an evolution of recognition of, uh, you know, when we're saying intelligence like that, at the time that it was applied, they were talking about iq intelligence quotient. That is a very specific logistical and, uh, mathematical capability. But now psychologists, uh, recognize, um, a spectrum of intelligences that, uh, it is. Is limiting, um, to humanity and to the dignity of humans to simply measure them according to, uh, an intelligence quotient for mathematical and logistical capability. Right. So that's one of the things I'm often thinking about too, that, uh, we are so much more than that. And, uh, that. I don't know. As a beloved child of God, I don't want to be me or anybody else to be limited by simply that.

>> Peter: Yeah. I think until November 2022, most of us in society probably just assumed that intelligence and consciousness were pretty similar things or hadn't, you know, Quite teased them out, I think. Um, one of the things that I keep wondering about with technology is how it has this ah, tendency to unbundle things that we assumed were, you know, together. And you can actually, uh, start through technology, start having one without the other. Um, and we've seen that particularly with intelligence and consciousness. And then also I, you know, I think it's important to name that consciousness should also be, ah, separate from imago dei, uh, you know, image of God. Because, um, we're obviously learning more and more about consciousness, uh, of other beings as well, non human entities. Um, and so these are tough concepts to understand, um, more than just on a cursory level. And I think as this technology progresses, we have to sort of deepen our understanding of these things to uh, be able to understand how to relate to them and use them well. Yeah, because it's just such a strange world we now live in where decision making things exist that have no consciousness, uh, and are not, you know, even alive, um, and yet can make decisions on our behalf. Um, so, and knowledge can exist outside of consciousness. So yeah, it's just a hard, hard thing to wrap our minds around.

>> Sonia Komen: That was so beautifully said, Peter. Um, yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean I was, I was thinking of these different layers. In a way they, they build one upon the other. There is this computational layer, right, which is perhaps the most basic. And then on top of it there is reasoning. Right. And that kind of coincides with what we also try to hone on our own, especially in our universe. Youth as students, right, we're trying to, to be very good at reasoning. That kind of builds on, on you know, basic like data processing and computation. And then from reasoning, right, you go into this realm that you were just describing, Peter, of consciousness, of emotional intelligence, of interpersonal skills, and perhaps most importantly, our relationship with God. Um, and how, how do we, how do we make sure that we preserve that at the top of this layering of reasoning and consciousness?

>> Jo Nygard Owens: It reminded me of, uh, our conversation with Moran, uh, and the outsourcing of decision making and what that looks like. And sometimes it can be beneficial in that having, uh, a more reasoned decision can be good, but that doesn't take into account all of the different ways we make decisions. And uh, as human beings we have of course, one brain in our heads. But science has shown we actually have two other brains that help us and integrate into our decision making processes. We have our hearts and our guts. And truly when those three are aligned, that's when we make our Best decisions.

>> Mercedes: And uh, being human, uh, Imago Day is also. I still feel like so much more than that. We've talked about emotional intelligence, uh, but there are also, uh, there's spatial intelligence. There are um, folks that are more physically capable. And I'm particular because I um, have uh, two, uh, beloved members of my congregation, uh, that are adults with down syndrome. And whenever they are, uh, in church, they love to be the ushers and uh, to bring the ablations forward. And uh, so the. We have to be careful in how we define what is human to make sure that it's not also limiting humanity in order to separate us from this computational computer. Generation 502.

>> Peter: Yeah, there was, I don't know if um, two of you remember this from the conference, but there was a moment when I, um, was a little.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: Pushed.

>> Peter: Uh, back a little at one of our speakers, um, because I heard uh, in uh, their talk that they were saying, well, okay, so, uh, these artificial intelligences can do all these things, but they uh, they don't have emotions. And so they're um, not on the same level as human beings or whatever. And I, um, resist the idea of defining humans by any sort of capability or ability of ours, um, for two reasons. One is definitely this, um, you know, the perspective that like, we all of God's people have a variety of abilities and it's so important that we don't leave uh, anybody out. And. And there's probably going to be, you know, whenever we say, okay, you're a person, if you can do this, then there are going to be people who are left out. And that's. I think that's wrong. Um, but then secondly, like, we don't know the limits of this technology. And if we set a certain bar and say like, okay, anything above this bar gets the rights of personhood, um, is. Gets to be treated as a person. We may surprise ourselves by how quickly we pass that bar with the technology we create.

I resist, uh, personifying chatbots as if they are conscious beings

Um, so, uh, folks who have been, uh, been our listeners have you know, uh, heard already how much I resist, uh, personifying these chatbots. I am a staunch believer in calling, um, them. Its, uh, because I do not like in any way suggesting, um, to myself or anybody else that this is a conscious being, a person. Um, these are tools and products that are augmenting our ability to live fulfilled lives faithfully, um, following Jesus and so forth. Um, and we bring the imago dei and it's through us that the spirit can um, work out, uh, their work in the world and do the beautiful things that God is doing, uh, through humanity, through the people here, and not through, uh, I mean we use the tools and God uses us. And let's not get that confused right.

>> Mercedes: To that point. Uh, and I think I can actually shift on this. After we had that, ah, recorded that episode, I went and renamed all my GPTs after cars.

In modern cars, there are automated processes in there now

And to that point, um, uh, it reminds me though that sometimes, uh, we don't know what we don't know or the different people in technology are uh, seeing more of a gradient change than we recognize. And so the example that comes to mind would be, uh, in modern cars, um, that there are automated processes in there now, right? So uh, we don't say, oh, I'm about to crash, turn the airbags on the airbags, come on. Uh, and even now, um, uh, just in the safety realm, you have um, lane assist, you have um, uh, it looks like you're falling asleep and uh, braking assist and things like that. And then of course we see like the next stage of it, which is here, let me park your car, or here, let me drive your car. But sometimes when we get to this place we start to worry about it when it's parking and driving. But we're not always aware, uh, uh, that uh, this has been gradually building to this place and we were fine with some of these other things. Uh, the first example that actually came to mind for me, uh, because I worked in the electric, uh, industry for a while, is uh, we have uh, systems that are, they are programmed to do it, but they automatically control the grid, uh, so that if a power line goes down in one place and there is the capability to immediately reroute the power, that can be done. It's all set in the system. And so sometimes I think, um, I don't know quite how to say this, but AI can produce this level of agentic action, automatic or, uh, potential decision making, but it's not in a bubble. There is a huge foundation under it of uh, systems that have been automated for safety and other reasons for a long time that we never debated, we never talked about. Um, uh. And so for a lot of people this is, it is a tipping point. But, but it's not. AI can't own the whole conversation. It's not AI, it's not the whole thing. It's just this step of it. I'm talking with my hands. And so unfortunately everybody else can't see that.

>> Sonia Komen: I just love that you, uh, named the GPTs after cars. I absolutely love that. Uh, well, to your point, Mercedes, I was thinking that Right now I think you're absolutely right. We still have such ah, a great degree of control because in many ways um, the AI apparatus is sandwiched, as it were, by humans. Right? We control the input and then we evaluate the output. Right. And in that sense whatever happens that AI enables is kind of happening there in between these two human uh, forces. I think that where it becomes a little more problematic and where we may um, not be able to control things um, anymore is when m. Multiple agents are going to um, pass the torch as it were, from one machine agent to the other. Uh, and even if at the beginning of that long throw of actions there is a human and at the other end there is another human, if we lose um, a sense of transparency, a sense of understanding what happens in between, um, then we're no longer going to be in control of some of those um, decisions. You know, like the great example that you provided is great, um, right. Because um, that is a very positive example. If the light goes out there and you can get the power from elsewhere, you certainly don't want some person to show up um, uh, for work and put their coffee down and assess the situation and then redirect the power. If the computer can do that in a split second while that person is still sleeping at home, then that's wonderful.

There's a real concern of authoritarian states using AI and so forth

Um, but there are some other areas now, especially in finance I feel, uh, where um, these uh, agents are starting to take decisions about investments and so on. For example, um, um, and those are so precise and happening in milliseconds and there's so many of those decisions that our minds keep, cannot even fully process and then all of this is happening in this already very fast paced environment, especially in, in the financial world that I'm not sure that we will even have the patience, uh, or the time or the resources to go back and check on, on a lot of these things. Uh, and once we have an accumulation of those decisions where there's this opportunity, opacity, um, this, this kind of block, ah, this inability to have a clear view of what has happened and what went into those decisions, we may end up in a world where a lot of the things that are affecting us are the result of these automations that we cannot be in full control.

>> Peter: Yeah, I'm a big fan of the work that Anthropic has been doing with um, AI, ah, interpretability, like where they are uh, looking into the black box and trying to um, understand more deeply what silicon neurons are firing to create different outputs and um, allowing us to have a window into um, These uh, neural nets that are doing such profound things and so far they're only able to do this for the simplest of models. And there are much more powerful models that are already out there that are from anthropic or other companies. Um, but I think it's so important to have this layer, some modicum of transparency so we can go back and check the work. Um, I think there's, yeah there. So if folks have read um, Yuval, Noah Harari's latest book, Nexus, like that really opened my minds to, my mind to the possibility, um, of how you know, uh, AI can leverage data to create such a dominating level of control over people, people's lives. Um, and so there's a real concern of authoritarian states, you know, using leveraging AI and so forth. And the idea of uh, like a social credit score kind of gives me a nightmare. Like we're, you know, more than just our credit scores for credit cards, but actually like uh, whether we're you know, seen as citizens, uh, in good standing because of what we've said or done or whatever, tracking everything in our lives is terrifying. Um, but uh, you know, that's. The possibility of that uh, happening is not that far off technologically. It's um, just politically what we choose to do with it. And so um, yeah, there's definitely a huge role. Um, especially in times where you know, I'm worried about the United States becoming a bit more authoritarian these days. Um, I find that we, we need to have, you know, speak up and have a role in advocating for, for liberal democracy to, so that we can actually have informed conversations and decisions and transparency around what is um, what these tools are doing on our behalfs.

Christian podcast discusses how to be critical thinkers about artificial intelligence

>> Mercedes: So I've been wondering, you know, we've had a wide ranging conversation here, here. And uh, where we started though was with this conversation about um, helping people to be critical thinkers and not to let fear dominate. But we've been talking very technologically and very uh, theologically, uh, and philosophically. At times I kind of wonder if we each just took a moment and, and uh, if we were to summarize this, what our message to listeners would be, um, where. How uh to be a critical thinker about AI. As a faithful Christian.

>> Peter: I think the number one thing I would say to people is do your discernment, um, discern what, what you are called to, uh, what God is calling to you in this moment. Like there are people uh, who are going to be early adopters who you know, figure things out and how to use the technology and, and share that with others. There are also going to be people who, um, especially in the church, like I think we're called to this as well. Um, although it's not necessarily, uh, that our focus on our podcast and uh, personally, not my charism, is like, um, being like just present, you know, the pastoral care for people who are. We didn't talk, we didn't circle back to talking about the job loss. Um, but that is such an important piece of like helping um, people with a ministry of presence, of uh, understanding that we're going through, ah, you know, another industrial revolution revolution. And um, there are going to be people who are, um, hurt by the technological disruption. And there are also things the church can do, like to uh, support, you know, what if there were social services, uh, led by the church to support people in reskilling or whatever else, you know, uh, we were unfortunately way behind on uh, the Internet and social media. Uh, but like, what if this was, you know, uh, the time where we flipped that script and actually, um, led the charge and helped people, uh, learn how to adapt to the changing world around them. That would be such an amazing thing for the church to do and such a great service to the world.

Sonia: Part of thinking critically about AI is gathering information

>> Sonia Komen: Thank you.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: You said half of what I was going to say. Uh, I want to put out there that part of thinking critically is knowing where to start gathering information. We have all had access and there are just so many articles out there that people can read. But how do you find the right ones? How do you find the helpful ones? How do you find the ones that are going to explain it in a way that you can understand? So this is where I'm going to put it in a plug for your podcast that your intro episodes lay this foundation. So if any of our listeners out there want to get a good foundation to do more critical thinking about AI, they can go and listen to the early episodes and then of course keep listening. But you lay that foundation of how to begin to think and understand AI.

>> Sonia Komen: Sarah, great points. Um, I guess what I would add, um, is, um, uh, something about the choice that we can make as individuals, um, when we um, are confronted with AI. Um, I was thinking, um, from my own experience, um, going to my, um, Gmail account, uh, I am now seeing all of these AI prompts as to how to reply to my emails. Um, and while obviously in general I am, uh, very much seeing the benefits of AI and um, I am definitely not against AI. Uh, I am very irritated by those little reply prompts. Um, I was thinking, why, why am I so irritated by these uh, and after a while I realized that actually what I dislike about them is that it um, takes away my ability to form more. My own reaction to what I just read before I am reading preloaded reactions. Um, and maybe one of those is actually what I will go for. Maybe one of them is actually perfect to answer my email. But I just want to have that 10 seconds to just digest the email on my own, have my own emotional reaction to it, maybe come up with a really bad reply in my own mind before I go to the AI generated ones. Um, I think that's the lesson that I took from that, that I would like to share uh, with our listeners. That um, AI is very quick, um, and we may get lost in that uh, we may take that easy path of picking one of those reply prompts. Prompts. Um, and I think that now more than ever we should try to slow down, you know, close our eyes to, to what is being offered to us in the moment, even if for a little bit of time, Even if for 5 seconds, 10 seconds, take that deep breath and check in with ourselves first before we go to the technology and what it can offer. I think that that can, can help us, uh, keep us grounded in who we are, but it can also show us over time what we can contribute, um, that the AI does not offer us. Um, in doing that little exercise with my emails, I did pick one of the um, AI generated replies, but I added at the end something that was very personal, that actually made sense in the context of my relationship with the person I was corresponding with that the AI could not, at least at this point figure out. Uh, and it was that personal touch, that lived experience, that moment of creativity and of empathy that made me aware that this is who I am and what I can to contribute, contribute as a human being, as a child of God in that moment.

>> Mercedes: And if I could build on that, Sonia, you know, not just uh, checking in with our ourselves but also, um, you know, how often is it recommended, uh, that we just take the pause in general and remind ourselves to, to be quiet and listen for God in the moment. Um, and in doing that I think it's important to acknowledge that every person has the agency to be a critical thinker to um, evaluate uh, where they are personally, uh, where uh, that intersects with, with their faith and their values. And I want people to know that um, they can um, do this work, uh, in conversation with other people, in conversation with mentors or leaders that they trust and in conversation with God, um, um, uh, especially when we focus on listening empathy and uh, considering our own actions, which I think kind of brings us to the end here time wise.

Peter and Mercedes discuss how AI can be used in churches

And since Joe uh, opened us up, uh, I'll take this opportunity uh, to thank y' all for uh, uh, joining each other for this crossover episode. I greatly appreciated the discussion and I uh, really appreciate the time. Um, and I um, love uh, uh, the opportunity to connect not just at summits, but also uh, again like through your podcast, to understand what uh, what is happening in uh, the larger context and bringing in thinkers that uh, I may not have the opportunity to engage with in small town Arkansas. So thank you for the work that.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: You all do as well and thank you for the ways that you are bringing AI to churches. I think it's so needed and I greatly appreciate your perspective and approach.

>> Sonia Komen: Thank you so much Peter and Mercedes. It was wonderful to talk with you both and uh, we look forward.

>> Peter: Thank you both. Likewise.

>> Sonia Komen: We look forward to many more conversations together.

>> Peter: Absolutely.

>> Mercedes: Thank you.

>> Peter: M.

>> Mercedes: We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. And we're wondering how you might be using AI in your, your context these days. Whether large or small, church or at work or home. Reach out to us and let us know how you found generative AI to be useful in your church ministry and lives. You can email us@infoichurchtoolkit.com we'd love to be able to share ideas in our final episode of the season as we consider a roundup of our topics and and how things have evolved since we started.

>> Peter: Thanks for joining us for episode 10. We have two more episodes planned for season one and we're so grateful to the Try Tank Research Institute for making this work possible.

>> Mercedes: So remember, AI is a tool, but our mission remains rooted in faith and community.

>> Peter: See you next time.

>> Jo Nygard Owens: Sa.