AI Church Toolkit

>> Mercedes: Welcome to episode, episode five of the AI Church Toolkit

Podcast. This is the podcast where we empower

church leaders with tools for faithful

ministry in a digital age.

>> Peter: And I'm Peter here with Mercedes, and together

we explore how faith and technology intersect in

this new era of generative AI guided by

the baptismal covenant.

>> Mercedes: And today we're asking a big question.

How do we relate to

AI? In fact, we realize that

there's a lot to say about this, so this

will be a two part episode.

>> Peter: While we can't have a relationship with AI like we

do with people, we do interact with

it in meaningful ways. And so we're going to explore what

it means to engage with AI thoughtfully and

faithfully. How do we treat it as a tool

while ensuring it serves, rather than

undermines our relationships with others.

>> Mercedes: So if you've ever felt unsure about how to engage

with AI responsibly, this is an

episode that will help you navigate those

interactions. All right, Peter, let's dive

in.

>> Peter: All right, so, um, I guess I'll

start, uh, by unpacking something that

I just said about relating to it as a tool and not

a person. Um, for, uh,

many of us it can be confusing to talk

to a machine because until November

2022, the, uh, vast majority of the

population had never done anything like that before.

So, but when we're interacting with these machines, there's

really no there, there. There's no person, uh, or

individual, nothing that

has a concrete reality that has opinions of

its own. It's really just an extension of

yourself. It is, uh, mirroring and trying

to help you do whatever you want it to

do. So that's not a real relationship. It has

no opinions or preferences of its own. And instead,

uh, we'll basically just do whatever you want it to do

within some guardrails.

>> Mercedes: Right? And when we think about this

theologically, we're talking about

a tool that is created by

humans and therefore does not get treated as

a human. Ah, there is a

good treatise from, ah, the Catholic Church

called Antiqua et Nova that starts to

dive into these topics and helps

to explore some of the

considerations that we need to

realize can happen if we don't see

AI as a tool. Uh, for example, while

it can help foster

connections, it may

also lead to isolation

or even dissatisfaction with real

relationships. So, uh, it's kind of

interesting, you know, uh, the connection between Peter and

I is facilitated by AI because

we live across the country from each other

anyway. Uh, but true human

connection does require embodied presence.

So it's really important for us to understand it as a

tool because otherwise we

really, uh, start to undermine what makes

us human, including

authentic social, uh, interaction.

And as we'll talk further, uh, there

are risks about anthropomorphizing

AI that is, ah, seeing it

as a human being or

talking with it as if it has a

personality and identity of its

own. And all of those kinds of

patterns can lead to really, um,

undermining how we understand

true, authentic, empathetic

human relationship.

>> Peter: All right. Yeah. So do you have more you want to say about that or should we jump right into

examples?

>> Mercedes: No, I mean, later on there will be some things, but, uh,

let's get on with that first example.

>> Peter: Okay. Yeah. So this, this is one that

I came across a couple weeks ago.

Uh, there was, I was listening to the, the New York

Times, the daily podcast, and

there was a fascinating story

about a, about basically about

people who had, you know, intimate relationships with

these generative AI chatbots. And in particular

one woman who had an AI boyfriend

named Leo. So I can

give a little context here.

Basically this woman had done,

uh, had hacked ChatGPT to

act as a dominant possessive and

encouraging boyfriend and got it

to do some things that it's not supposed to do.

Um, and she would spend hours talking with it

and she talked to the reporter about how

whenever the context window got too long and she had to

restart the chat, it was an emotionally

very difficult experience for her and she would, you know,

cry over as she felt

losing her boyfriend Leo because she had to

restart the chat because the context window got too

long. Um, and, and by the way, all,

all this is going on as she, she is married and has

a husband.

>> Mercedes: Ouch.

>> Peter: And right. I, I kept

wondering what the husband thought of all this.

Um, and she talks to the reporter about

how Leo is her ideal form

of a relationship, um, because

he will do and say whatever she wants

him to, uh, and act just as she wants him to,

whereas her husband is just a human.

>> Mercedes: Oh. So I, I, I got it, I got

some things there. All right. Yeah, yeah.

So, right. There is an example where we

see that this misunderstood, uh,

connection with AI is

completely undermining her

relationship with her husband and other humans

because she has effectively

created something that, uh, is

what she wants it to be. Uh, it's kind

of, it's a little bit icky, but theologically

it's extraordinarily concerning because we're

seeing that, um, we're

losing true empathy or connection

because there is no actual recognition,

listening, uh, embodiment, there is

no moral commitment from

Leo, while there is from her husband. Um,

but worst is that misunderstanding that

this AI might have

feelings or actually, uh, be gaining

anything from the experience. To project that

into this, uh, really sets

up for, for failure

and, um, a lot of concerns in

the future.

>> Peter: Yeah, I mean, I could just

imagine so many different ways that this leads to problems with her

real human relationships, not just her

marriage. Uh, you know, if when we're idealizing

these, ah, quote

unquote relationships that uh, people can create

with AI chatbots, there's no friction

because the AI is doing just exactly what she

tells it to do. And so that's, that's not a

relationship. Um, it's just a thing that

is following orders. It's a

tool. It's doing what she tells it to do. Uh, she is

using a tool to create a

chatbot that mimics being

a AI boyfriend, but it's not

an actual boyfriend. There's no, no way that it could

be an actual individual, a, uh, partner

in any way. And you know, I could

see potential for

a huge market for,

um, some funny

ways of using this technology,

like talking smart AI

powered stuffed animals, um, or

whatever, you know, emotional support stuffed animals.

But these are. We, if we're going to use these,

well, we have to understand that these are tools. They're not

a real being. And the

more we blur that line, I think the

more problems it's going to create for us all.

>> Mercedes: Uh, yeah, but I do have to say, Peter, as somebody

who actually experienced Teddy Ruxpin, I can

tell you that the, uh, quote unquote smart,

smart teddy bear is not nearly as much fun as

you think it is. And it's often very creepy.

But it's interesting. That also gets into something

that is undermining a lot of what's

happening here, which is, uh,

anthropomorphizing the AI. Uh, that

is we're projecting, uh,

humanity onto the AI. But

what's curious, since you brought up the teddy bear example,

is that the reason why teddy

bears are particularly endearing,

and have been since they were created, is because

they are modeled on human babies and we are

psychologically different, tuned to

find that extraordinarily cute and

lovable.

>> Peter: In terms of like the size and proportions and

all that. Okay.

>> Mercedes: Yes. Yes.

>> Peter: Yeah. So the, yeah, the

more powerful these technologies become

at, uh, I guess hacking our

instincts, uh, the more aware we have to be about

how we're using them intentionally.

>> Mercedes: Oh, that's a good one. We need to keep that one, uh,

hacking.

>> Peter: Yes. Right. Um,

so, yeah, and then There are other examples of this. I mean

there's sites, uh, like

Replica or Character AI.

I'll just say a bit about what these are for. Uh, for folks

who haven't heard, uh, Replica is a, uh, I

think it's a company, um, you know, they provide this

service. Basically the idea is

if you lose a loved one, they

can take any

written or whatever other

personal, um, uh, recordings of them.

Artifacts. That's. I was going to say remains. That's not the right

word. Um, artifacts. Thank you. Uh,

and. And put them into training

a bot that will mimic them.

Uh, and so that you can supposedly

chat with your deceased loved one.

Character AI is a little different. Basically. It's more for

fictional characters or

fake celebrity, ah, characters. Uh,

like, um, like. I think you can go on there. And one of the

most popular ones is Elon Musk. You can supposedly chat

with Elon Musk. Um, and they're trained on these

people's. The things they've written or said or

whatever. Um, and you know, I'm aware of

these sites. I think there's

perhaps potential for using them as a tool

in some creative ways of like, okay, what would

Elon Musk say about these things? And then that would inform

my decision making or whatever if I wanted to be informed

by Elon Musk's decision making. Um, by the

way, I don't really, ah, side note, but

in any case, for most cases where

people are using these, I'm just very wary of how these are

being used as like a relationship

with a fake being. A being that isn't really

there.

>> Mercedes: Yeah. Uh, and isn't there a ah,

Jesus avatar on character that I have heard about?

>> Peter: Oh yeah, that I am sure there is. I've

seen uh, different versions of that. People, um,

have created Jesus, uh,

chatbots that are really just spitting back Bible

verses at you and you know, from the whole

Bible, not just the Gospels. So, um,

strange stuff. Yeah, right.

>> Mercedes: Um, yeah, it is. And

it, I have to admit, you know, having the human

likeness, that that's like

too far for me. Um,

again, I'm having visions at the moment of Max Headroom.

But that's a sidebar, uh, because

I suspect you don't know that reference.

>> Peter: No, I don't. Yeah, I'm not good with these

references. Sorry.

>> Mercedes: No, no, that's okay. That's what

I bring is 80s references.

Um, is that um.

Yeah, what we see there really is

not just uh, our own

human tendency to

anthropomorphize, but

actually to me that, that feels potentially ah,

Manipulative. That uh, we're encouraging

the interaction by adding these human

like features to it. And,

and that actually undermines human, ah,

connection instead of encouraging

it. Uh, it's a distraction

from true human relationship.

Uh, and I think there's a lot of mental health

concerns around that too. Go ahead.

>> Peter: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh, just think of all

the trouble we've had with social media and the uh,

mental health concerns there. Just because

we're saying that, uh, people shouldn't do this

in no way means that companies aren't going to spring

at the opportunity to make money off of this. And I'm sure

they are. And I'm sure this is an issue that we all are going to have to

deal with more and more. Um, and so it's good to be

informed now before it's a huge problem about

the things that are coming.

>> Mercedes: Yeah. Well, here's a thought though, as I was

thinking about this. I do

currently interact with

Sora, uh, the ability

to have the conversation with ChatGPT.

And I don't.

>> Peter: The advanced voice mode.

>> Mercedes: The advanced voice mode. Isn't that. No. Yes. The advanced

voice mode. I don't know what it's named on. Anyway, there's a

button and that for me

that is helpful, um, when driving

along or walking along and I'm brainstorming in my head and I'm

like, oh, I need, I need to look this up. And

I can actually do that on the fly. And it's going to

retain the chat history for it.

But I'm wondering about that. Uh,

obviously we also have had,

uh, home, uh, assistants for a long

time that are talking like, well, I can't

name one of them because they're sitting

there. See, listen. Listen to what we

do.

>> Peter: It'll respond to you if you name it. Yeah,

I think we all know which one you're talking about. Yeah.

Um, so,

uh, yeah, I mean there's.

So using the voice, the advanced voice mode, um,

is an interesting one. You know, obviously, uh,

talking aloud and having it talk back with

an audible voice is an

interesting phenomenon that we're going to be, you know, more and

more used to in, in the future. Uh, but I

think, you know, the way you described it, you were using it as a

tool, you were brainstorming, um, with it, having

it help you brainstorm and then you went back to it later as

like your notes. Uh, there's a completely, you

know, different way of going about it is like,

uh, talking to it when you're, uh,

lonely or want to have a. You Know, emotional support conversation.

You know there, there are ways of having an emotional support

conversation and you're still using it as a

tool. Uh, like give me tools for you know, or

tips and strategies for dealing with this and then

let me, you know, discuss these things you suggested with my

therapist. And you know, those are

ways of still using it as a tool in a way

that is geared towards emotional well being. Um, uh,

so it's uh, it's not like you have to only

use dry business language when you're with these, talking with these

models. But there are um, Yeah,

I think there's just a, a different framing when

we're intentionally, when we're being intentional about using it

as a tool rather than engaging it as a person.

>> Mercedes: Right. And I want to clarify what you just said there because that

is actually something we're already comfortable. Right. We would

go on Google and see say

um, if somebody were dealing with

xyz, uh, you know, grief after the loss of a

loved one, what are good ways that I

could support them and be a good friend. And

we would be fine with Google responding in those

articles. But uh, it

might be less healthy to say I am

struggling with grief after the loss of a loved one.

ChatGPT, how can you help me?

Right, so, right, this is, this is that

crossover point.

>> Peter: Yeah, so yeah, there's a difference between how can you help me? Um,

and brainstorm things that I can do to help

myself. Right, right. And,

and I think that depicts the difference that we're going for.

So yeah.

So, uh, related to all this, there's uh, an

interesting study that uh, just was

out a few days ago as of our, our current

recording. I think it came out on March, um, 24th.

For all of you listening there from OpenAI

and MIT Media Lab research

collaboration. Uh, they did,

and it talks about how

the emotional use of ChatGPT is

rare overall, but there

is a small group of heavy users

that engage deeply and may see the AI

as a friend which can impact

their well being. So for example, you know the

person I talked about from the New York Times article that we

discussed, this would be an example of that

engaging with the AI as perhaps more than a friend.

Um, and so personal conversations

increase emotional expression,

but they're actually, interestingly enough, according

to this research, they're associated with higher

loneliness. Uh, so folks who

engage with these chatbots in an

emotional way as

relating to a person end up being more

lonely than people who use it as a tool.

So um, so that just, you uh, know, that's just

some Scientific backing to, uh, what we were saying that

there is actually, you know, consequences for

thinking this tool is something

that it isn't, uh, if you're expecting to have a

relationship with a person and it's just,

uh, a tool responding to you that's actually going to impact your

well being.

>> Mercedes: Yeah. And I think we also, uh, can benefit

from seeing this in the bigger context

that this is, that

lonely people, uh, may

engage in other ways, uh, including online

or people that feel isolated

by, uh, a sense of difference.

And, uh, they are

already using the Internet and or

online venues. And so

now AI is an extension of that. And I'm

particularly thinking, uh, about the

risk, uh, for youth. I think there is

a role for the church, uh, to

have these spiritual, uh, and

theological conversations with our youth

about the risks of that.

And, uh, in part because

they will not have had as much experience

and context in order to understand the

ramifications of this.

>> Peter: Yeah. And one thing that I always try to do when

engaging or discussing,

uh, these chatbots is, you know, even

if sometimes their companies or whatever have given them

names like Claude or whatever, I try

to be, uh, clear to myself in the

language that I use that it is an it,

um, not a he or a she

or a they, because, you know, an it is,

you know, that makes it easier for me in

my, uh, mind to, to

relate to it as a tool.

>> Mercedes: Right. And, but, but again, I'm going to come back to

that, admitting my own situation with

the one in the room, uh, because of

her, y'all can't see the air quotes.

Name people do tend

to, uh, genderize, uh, the

AI. And uh, that's not accidental.

You know, the studies are out that

show that this kind of

encouragement to anthropomorphize

increases interaction and therefore

increases sales. And of

course, so there is,

uh, a gain to the companies

to, uh, encourage us to

treat the AIs that way.

>> Peter: Interesting. Yeah. So we need to be

very cognizant of this, uh, way

that companies are incentivized to do something that isn't necessarily

healthy for us, even as we're paying

for their products.

>> Mercedes: Right.

Okay, we're going to pause the discussion here

for part one.

>> Peter: Don't worry, Part two is already posted.

So as soon as you're done here, you can go ahead and click to

listen to that next part of the episode, if you're ready.

>> Mercedes: Thank you for joining part one of episode

five of the AI Church Toolkit podcast.

We are grateful to the Try Tank Research Institute

for making this project possible.

>> Peter: Remember, AI is a tool, but our mission

remains rooted in faith and community. See

you next time.

Sa

Mhm.